Save: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... WeJkoznYd5
Test scenario is 6 Behemoth Es in the "Bombard" role under a Colossus E. The Colossus E is stationary for the duration of the test. The test begins with 1 Xenon K having just entered the Colossus E's radar range. Behemoths Es are arranged in a line trailing the Colossus E, due to falling out of formation after the Colossus E traversed the southern gate of Tharka's Cascade XV before the save begins. All Behemoth Es are manned by captains and service crew with a combined skill of at least 3 and 1/3 stars. Behemoth Es have all equipment slots filled. Turrets are L plasma and M pulse, set to "Attack capital ships first" and "Attack fighters first", respectively.
No commands are issued by the player during the test.
Test run 1 - https://youtu.be/RI3Eg3zcok0
00:27 - The first Behemoth E activates travel drive to engage the K, but overshoots while the K is moving toward the Colossus E.
01:00 - Of the 5 other Behemoth Es, 3 activate their travel drives to approach the K. The Behemoth E closest to the K does not activate its travel drive. The last Behemoth E has been engaged by Xenon fighters offscreen and is unable to activate its travel drive.
01:28 - One of the Behemoth Es begins firing on the K with its L plasma turrets. This means the Behemoth E has been within main battery range of the K for some time, but it has not fired them yet.
01:47 - A Behemoth E realizes it's flown itself "too close", turns to fly away from the K.
02:28 - A different Behemoth E is in position further away from the K, but within main battery range with a clear line of fire. Proceeds to "waggle" at the K for a moment, fires a short burst from one of its main batteries. It then pitches up to gain elevation.
03:11 - The K is above the Behemoth E that initially flew past it, and begins attacking. This Behemoth E fires on the K with its forward batteries. But as the K passes over it, the Behemoth E stops pitching upward to track the K and soon stops firing its forward batteries. The Behemoth E is destroyed shortly after this.
04:15 - A Behemoth E does more waggling at the K, stops to fly upwards to match elevation with the K.
05:24 - The four Behemoth Es present are aiming at the K, but only some are firing their main batteries. They're mostly missing.
05:38 - A Behemoth E turns away from the K to try and regain distance/match elevation as the K moves towards it.
0:6:09 - A second Behemoth E is lost, it's in the process of turning away from the K, as the K flies over it.
06:48 - A third Behemoth E is lost, same as the above. Another Behemoth E manages to stay aimed at the K, fire, and hit with its forward batteries for a period. It ends up turning up/away from the K again.
07:14 - Two surviving Behemoth Es attempt to out-climb the K instead of simply shooting it.
07:47 - Fourth Behemoth E lost.
08:49 - Fifth Behemoth E lost; it's pointed down and away from the K, for reasons I can't quite explain. The sixth Behemoth E still hasn't reached the K, so I end the run here.
Test run 2 recorded, writeup to follow
[7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Moderator: DevNet Public Moderators
[7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Conclusions from Test run 1:
1) Xenon Ks still intrinsically abuse destroyer AI pitch limitations
2) AI-controlled destroyers still waggle at target capital ships, firing of main batteries is inconsistent
3) AI-controlled destroyers still fail to engage target capital ships at the range of their forward batteries
4) Travel drive usage still inconsistent
1) Xenon Ks still intrinsically abuse destroyer AI pitch limitations
2) AI-controlled destroyers still waggle at target capital ships, firing of main batteries is inconsistent
3) AI-controlled destroyers still fail to engage target capital ships at the range of their forward batteries
4) Travel drive usage still inconsistent
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
While I've not done the extensive testing you have, I've observed my Destroyers "nodding" at a target. They'll approach a Station or Capital Ship target and, generally, do a fairly good job that initial positioning, getting into main battery range. They'll then start firing, but a little off-target (not fully aligned yet), often wasting half a volley. They'll then start shooting again, more accurately but, while still firing, pitch up meaning most of the shots miss. They'll then level out again, facing the target and fire again. How often they "nod" doesn't seem consistent. Sometimes they keep doing it, constantly missing, sometimes they'll settle down after that first nod.
When they don't pitch up and down again, seemingly randomly, they do a fairly good job. It's this "nod" that totally breaks the encounter, as most of their shots are wasted. Note that this behaviour seems to be the Destroyer trying to make small adjustments to it's height, to be on the same level as the target. It's be far far better if they just point at the target, rather than pitch UP drastically as a way to match the vertical plane perfectly. It's the fact that they'll do this "nod" with stations too that's really odd, as there's no need to them to adjust position until a module is destroyed.
Any Faction Destroyer - I have Behemoth E's and Phoenix E's - is totally and utterly out-matched by a regular Xenon K, and much of this is because they're too busy nodding at their target rather than shooting it. It's why what should be an overwhelming squad of destroyers gets systematically owned by a Xenon K. K has FAR more damaging weapons of course and can soak up FAR more damage too. However, if the shots aren't hitting it due to this weird pitch-up thing, well, they cannot overwhelm the target as they should be able to.
In earlier game versions, typically if I had three Destroyers, they could counter a Xenon K quite nicely. One of two of them would be beaten up a bit, and it's always possible to lose one if the K focusses solely on it - like when ships used to get too close / out of formation Now however, a Xenon K seems to pick destroyers apart with ease, as the Faction destroyers simply aren't landing the hits they should.
One other odd thing I'm seeing with groups of ships, is the LEAD ship flying 40mk+ away, while its subordinates move into position as expected. Many times now, I've had to CANCEL what the lead destroyer is doing because he's an idiot lol.
I will say, I've not personally seen my Destroyer get quite as close to a target is in OP's video. Mine have been good at staying at an appropriate range, it's just their constant adjustments, leading them to pitch up dramatically, thrust slightly, then pitch down again that really hurts them. K is generally firing off dozens of accurate shots while they're faffing around. This pitch behaviour can be seen in the video on some ships. Note that my crew are all really low-level, so I expected them to not be that good. They better at initial positioning than I expected for such low-level Pilots. But this pitch thing is bad.
I do wonder if Destroyers with main batteries, should have really powerful strafe abilities, so they can strafe up/down etc. I'd also give them really good reverse thrust, so they can back away from a target - they seem to get in a right mess when they get too close, with their manoeuvring putting them in direct danger as they attempt to gain some distance again.
When they don't pitch up and down again, seemingly randomly, they do a fairly good job. It's this "nod" that totally breaks the encounter, as most of their shots are wasted. Note that this behaviour seems to be the Destroyer trying to make small adjustments to it's height, to be on the same level as the target. It's be far far better if they just point at the target, rather than pitch UP drastically as a way to match the vertical plane perfectly. It's the fact that they'll do this "nod" with stations too that's really odd, as there's no need to them to adjust position until a module is destroyed.
Any Faction Destroyer - I have Behemoth E's and Phoenix E's - is totally and utterly out-matched by a regular Xenon K, and much of this is because they're too busy nodding at their target rather than shooting it. It's why what should be an overwhelming squad of destroyers gets systematically owned by a Xenon K. K has FAR more damaging weapons of course and can soak up FAR more damage too. However, if the shots aren't hitting it due to this weird pitch-up thing, well, they cannot overwhelm the target as they should be able to.
In earlier game versions, typically if I had three Destroyers, they could counter a Xenon K quite nicely. One of two of them would be beaten up a bit, and it's always possible to lose one if the K focusses solely on it - like when ships used to get too close / out of formation Now however, a Xenon K seems to pick destroyers apart with ease, as the Faction destroyers simply aren't landing the hits they should.
One other odd thing I'm seeing with groups of ships, is the LEAD ship flying 40mk+ away, while its subordinates move into position as expected. Many times now, I've had to CANCEL what the lead destroyer is doing because he's an idiot lol.
I will say, I've not personally seen my Destroyer get quite as close to a target is in OP's video. Mine have been good at staying at an appropriate range, it's just their constant adjustments, leading them to pitch up dramatically, thrust slightly, then pitch down again that really hurts them. K is generally firing off dozens of accurate shots while they're faffing around. This pitch behaviour can be seen in the video on some ships. Note that my crew are all really low-level, so I expected them to not be that good. They better at initial positioning than I expected for such low-level Pilots. But this pitch thing is bad.
I do wonder if Destroyers with main batteries, should have really powerful strafe abilities, so they can strafe up/down etc. I'd also give them really good reverse thrust, so they can back away from a target - they seem to get in a right mess when they get too close, with their manoeuvring putting them in direct danger as they attempt to gain some distance again.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Probably a pipe dream, but after watching that video, I was thinking wouldn't it be great if a group of AI destroyers could coordinate, anticipate, and act. The closest destroyer gets the Ks attention and leads it in a direction. The others anticipate this happening and position for rear or flank shots. No waggling, just pursue and fire. When another gets the attention, the lead and others anticipate this and turn to take advantage the moment the K stops pursuing. I quit using destroyers on Ks/Is a long time ago and switched to fighter-bombers. It was less painful and much more cost effective. I may give 'Coordinated Attack' another go with this update, and see if anything has changed.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
High-level strategy, coordination, and predictive decisionmaking are outside of the scope of X4's AI. I've made peace with that.
Honestly, I think a lot of issues with the game's AI - particularly pathfinding and combat in high attention - comes from chasing overly detailed and complex ideas like this. What I'm expecting in these tests is for NPC-controlled destroyers to consistently fly to an appropriate range of their target, aim at the target, and fire their main batteries. That's it.The closest destroyer gets the Ks attention and leads it in a direction. The others anticipate this happening and position for rear or flank shots. No waggling, just pursue and fire. When another gets the attention, the lead and others anticipate this and turn to take advantage the moment the K stops pursuing. I quit using destroyers on Ks/Is a long time ago and switched to fighter-bombers. It was less painful and much more cost effective. I may give 'Coordinated Attack' another go with this update, and see if anything has changed.
The waggling/waving/nodding at targets is a minor issue by itself, but seems linked to the bigger problem of destroyers not using their forward guns when they are in position to do so. I strongly disagree with destroyers attempting to reposition themselves on an approaching enemy, at least in the way they do now i.e. turning around and flying away rather than using reverse or strafing thrust. If there are technical or design reasons for that, I'll accept them. But in that case, destroyers should not try to maneuver once they're in firing position against a non-static target.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Test run 2 - https://youtu.be/kg12c_tMRSM
00:00 - Test begins. Behemoth crew skills are reviewed.
00:44 - Same as the first run, the Behemoth in front uses its travel drive to approach the K, but flies past before deactivating it.
01:51 - A Behemoth flies within main battery range of the K, but does not fire them until it's very close.
02:13 - The above Behemoth "realizes" it's close to the K, stops attacking, and turns to fly away. One other Behemoth is attacking the K with its main batteries. Two more are making questionable maneuvers further back, rather than and moving toward or firing at the K.
02:58 - A Behemoth climbing a bit, stopping, facing the K for a moment, not firing its main batteries, then going back to climbing again. Another Behemoth can be seen closer to the K, staying still, aimed at the K, and firing its main batteries.
03:33 - The Behemoth that flew past the K has begun taking hits. The Behemoth is not facing the K directly above it. Rather, it's pitched up and turning away. It is destroyed by the K before it can complete any sort of maneuver. It never fired its main batteries at any point.
04:26 - Four of the remaining Behemoths approach and sit some distance away from the K. Three fire their main batteries at the K, some taking longer to start than others. Some stop firing, yet make no repositioning maneuvers.
05:20 - The Behemoth closest to the K turns away and upward as it begins to take Graviton fire. The other Behemoths soon follow.
06:14 - Another Behemoth destroyed, same circumstances as all the others.
06:33 - Three of the remaining Behemoths are climbing, facing away from the K, which is above all of them and within range to hit them with its Graviton turrets.
06:52 - Two of the Behemoths get close to the same elevation as the K... and then pitch down? They slowly turn to face the K (which is still above them, as it's been climbing faster than they have).
08:04 - One of the surviving Behemoths is stuck on the wreck of a destroyed Behemoth.
08:51 - The K is above the Behemoth that is stuck, but is not firing its weapons. I believe this is a bug, which I've reported in another thread.
09:39 - A second Xenon K has entered the area.
12:06 - A Behemoth aims and briefly fires only one of its main batteries at the K. It stops firing to make a number of small turns, returns to aiming at the K, but does not resume firing.
13:26 - The above Behemoth is destroyed. It isn't in the process of turning when it dies, but is not firing its main batteries.
14:08 - One Behemoth remains, but its engines have been destroyed by Xenon fighters. Both Xenon Ks are hovering above it, not firing any weapons (see above bug report). The run effectively ends here.
00:00 - Test begins. Behemoth crew skills are reviewed.
00:44 - Same as the first run, the Behemoth in front uses its travel drive to approach the K, but flies past before deactivating it.
01:51 - A Behemoth flies within main battery range of the K, but does not fire them until it's very close.
02:13 - The above Behemoth "realizes" it's close to the K, stops attacking, and turns to fly away. One other Behemoth is attacking the K with its main batteries. Two more are making questionable maneuvers further back, rather than and moving toward or firing at the K.
02:58 - A Behemoth climbing a bit, stopping, facing the K for a moment, not firing its main batteries, then going back to climbing again. Another Behemoth can be seen closer to the K, staying still, aimed at the K, and firing its main batteries.
03:33 - The Behemoth that flew past the K has begun taking hits. The Behemoth is not facing the K directly above it. Rather, it's pitched up and turning away. It is destroyed by the K before it can complete any sort of maneuver. It never fired its main batteries at any point.
04:26 - Four of the remaining Behemoths approach and sit some distance away from the K. Three fire their main batteries at the K, some taking longer to start than others. Some stop firing, yet make no repositioning maneuvers.
05:20 - The Behemoth closest to the K turns away and upward as it begins to take Graviton fire. The other Behemoths soon follow.
06:14 - Another Behemoth destroyed, same circumstances as all the others.
06:33 - Three of the remaining Behemoths are climbing, facing away from the K, which is above all of them and within range to hit them with its Graviton turrets.
06:52 - Two of the Behemoths get close to the same elevation as the K... and then pitch down? They slowly turn to face the K (which is still above them, as it's been climbing faster than they have).
08:04 - One of the surviving Behemoths is stuck on the wreck of a destroyed Behemoth.
08:51 - The K is above the Behemoth that is stuck, but is not firing its weapons. I believe this is a bug, which I've reported in another thread.
09:39 - A second Xenon K has entered the area.
12:06 - A Behemoth aims and briefly fires only one of its main batteries at the K. It stops firing to make a number of small turns, returns to aiming at the K, but does not resume firing.
13:26 - The above Behemoth is destroyed. It isn't in the process of turning when it dies, but is not firing its main batteries.
14:08 - One Behemoth remains, but its engines have been destroyed by Xenon fighters. Both Xenon Ks are hovering above it, not firing any weapons (see above bug report). The run effectively ends here.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Conclusions from Test run 2:
1) Xenon Ks still intrinsically abuse destroyer AI pitch limitations
2) NPC destroyers do not have the maneuverability to make tactically meaningful position changes while under fire from an opposing capital ship.
1) Xenon Ks still intrinsically abuse destroyer AI pitch limitations
2) NPC destroyers do not have the maneuverability to make tactically meaningful position changes while under fire from an opposing capital ship.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Regarding point 2, I'm not going to ask for destroyers to be made to turn faster. Rather, I want them to stop trying to reposition themselves once they're within range and have a clear line of sight on their target. Given the damage and hull values involved in capital-to-capital ship combat, and the limitations on the usage of traversal and maneuvering tools (reverse thrust, strafing), I just want NPC destroyers to get themselves into firing range, point themselves at their target, and fire their main batteries at it. When that can be achieved consistently, then more advanced behaviors that are relevant and feasible for the destroyer ship class can be added.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
This would be preferable. They have two options:A5PECT wrote: ↑Fri, 19. Apr 24, 05:08Regarding point 2, I'm not going to ask for destroyers to be made to turn faster. Rather, I want them to stop trying to reposition themselves once they're within range and have a clear line of sight on their target. Given the damage and hull values involved in capital-to-capital ship combat, and the limitations on the usage of traversal and maneuvering tools (reverse thrust, strafing), I just want NPC destroyers to get themselves into firing range, point themselves at their target, and fire their main batteries at it. When that can be achieved consistently, then more advanced behaviors that are relevant and feasible for the destroyer ship class can be added.
i) Try and move, reducing their dps on target, likely get blown up anyway
ii) Stay put, point towards the target as best they can and keep shooting.
Many a time, I've witnessed a ship - not just mine, but those of the friendly factions - battling Xenon and break off the attack moments before victory. Seeing a definite win turn into a total loss just because the ship decided to turn away, is far from ideal.
When I follow my Fighters in combat - admittedly a MUCH more manoeuvrable craft - they can be seen to REVERSE at times while firing on a target. Basically, they stop and just keep shooting, while strafing and reversing to stay in position. If Destroyers under AI control actually used reverse too, it'd give them a huge boost to their combat effectiveness. Sure, they're slower backwards, but backing away at 50ms is far better than taking several minutes to turn around, all the while with the main guns not doing anything.
If I'm flying a Destroyer, I'll often do this. I'll reverse to gain a little distance, which allows me to keep fire from the main battery on-target the entire time.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
This would be such a blessing. I really don't know why this "evasion" behaviour is even in the game. It just makes things not plannable and frustrating. I feel that "just point to target and shoot" would make things a lot better.A5PECT wrote: ↑Fri, 19. Apr 24, 05:08Regarding point 2, I'm not going to ask for destroyers to be made to turn faster. Rather, I want them to stop trying to reposition themselves once they're within range and have a clear line of sight on their target. Given the damage and hull values involved in capital-to-capital ship combat, and the limitations on the usage of traversal and maneuvering tools (reverse thrust, strafing), I just want NPC destroyers to get themselves into firing range, point themselves at their target, and fire their main batteries at it. When that can be achieved consistently, then more advanced behaviors that are relevant and feasible for the destroyer ship class can be added.
Is there a reason, why this evasion behaviour is still in the game? What is the reasoning behind it? (Maybe we miss something)
I actually think, the issue would be less noticeable, if the Xenon weren't the main enemy. Since their capitals play by their own rules. (Turret focussed, not main gun focussed)
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
I believe it was chosen as the default behavior for capital ships when X4 began development. It made sense for most combat-oriented capital ships in previous X games, as their firepower was concentrated in turrets with wide fields of fire as opposed to forward weapons with narrow fields of fire. You can see this type of behavior working well when you look at the Xenon K in X4, which relies entirely on turrets to deal damage and has no main battery. When the K's direction of movement is not aligned with the direction of its target, it is still able to attack using an appreciable portion of its maximum potential damage output. So even thought the K is a slow moving ship, it is able maintain uptime on its primary role of attacking and dealing damage to a target while performing maneuvers.
This type of behavior is not conducive to how any other destroyer in X4 is designed. When their direction of movement is not aligned with the direction its target is in, their primary source of damage output is lost until the destroyer stops and realigns itself with its target. This often results in very long periods of downtime for a destroyer's main weapon, as destroyers are not fast or maneuverable ships. Destroyers trying to manuever so much results in them spending more time turning and repositioning than doing what they're supposed to do: shoot the damn gun.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
New round of tests for beta 3. Same save file as the original test, all test parameters maintained.
Test run 1 - https://youtu.be/uQSvKN-gGys
00:40 - Closest Behemoth travel drives to approach the K. Overshoots, but less so than in previous tests.
01:28 - Other Behemoths activate travel drive to approach the K. Several of them disengage travel drive very close the K, putting themselves within range of its Graviton turrets. Those Behemoths also end up positioned very, very close to each other.
02:23 - After deactivating travel mode, they spend a long time maintaining their heading before turning towards the K. During this time, the K is within range and attacking the Colossus the Behemoths are assigned to bombard for.
02:53 - A Behemoth has had its engines destroyed by the K and is unable to move. Another two Behemoths are very close by, having difficulty maneuvering around one another. One of the Behemoths is destroyed by the K.
04:12 - A Behemoth further away turns towards the K and begins firing. Notably, it had been sitting in that position, facing off target, not firing its main battery since at least 03:53. Two other Behemoths can be seen closer to the K, attempting the "turn away and climb" maneuver from previous tests.
05:25 - A Behemoth has boosted away all of its shields climbing and moving away from the K. For what it's worth, it did make it away from and to the same elevation as the K.
05:59 - A Behemoth engages in the "climb to elevation of target, turn toward target, find target has moved out of range, climb to elevation of target..." loop. Manages to put out a handful of main battery rounds in the proccess, but spends much more time pitching up and down than firing.
07:15 - A Behemoth is seen pitching upwards, toward the K that's flying above. The Behemoth reaches the AI's maximum pitch angle and struggles to stay aimed at the K.
08:51 - A Behemoth is under attack by a large group of S and M Xenon ships, but none of its turrets are firing. All turrets are armed and set to orders that should target the attacking ships. See the bug reported in Beta 2, Test 01, Run 2.
10:20 - A Behemoth successfully aims toward and fires its main batteries at the K. Unfortunately, a second K has arrived and begins attacking this Behemoth. The Behemoth is destroyed, but continuously attacks the first K until its death.
11:54 - The last remaining Behemoth sits within main battery range of the first K, but simply idles in position for a time, not firing or even aiming towards the K. Eventually, it does turn and begin firing. It continues firing until the second K approaches and destroys it. The Behemoth dies the same way the previous one did, firing at the first K. Test run ends here.
Test run 2 - https://youtu.be/c50KmkGp7DY
01:39 - Opening moves are similar to the previous test: Behemoths use their travel drives but overshoot by various degrees.
01:51 - One of the Behemoths disengages its travel drive, then takes 30 seconds to recognize the K is no longer in the same position it was when the Behemoth began charging its travel drive. The Behemoth turns away from the K, rather than toward it. Other Behemoths turn toward the K and begin firing their main batteries.
03:56 - The four Behemoths present are in position and fire their main batteries at the K. The Behemoth closest to the camera stops to perform an unnecessary pitch up, then down maneuver.
04:04 - The K is destroyed by concentrated fire from 4 Behemoths. Test run ends.
Test run 3 - https://youtu.be/Z0oGBqK9JKg
01:43 - Opening moves. This time, four Behemoths end up extremely close to the K.
02:25 - A Behemoth has its engines destroyed while trying to turn and fly away from the K. The Behemoth is destroyed shortly after this.
03:19 - Another instance of a Behemoth turning away from the K, rather than toward it. Two Behemoths in the background are facing in two different directions, while the K hovers above them.
04:11 - A Behemoth struggles to aim at the K flying above maximum pitch angle. It is unable to fire or even aim its main batteries at the K while it's rapidly destroyed by Graviton fire.
04:32 - Two other Behemoths have manage to get into position and maintain fire from their main batteries until the K is destroyed. Test run ends.
Test run 1 - https://youtu.be/uQSvKN-gGys
00:40 - Closest Behemoth travel drives to approach the K. Overshoots, but less so than in previous tests.
01:28 - Other Behemoths activate travel drive to approach the K. Several of them disengage travel drive very close the K, putting themselves within range of its Graviton turrets. Those Behemoths also end up positioned very, very close to each other.
02:23 - After deactivating travel mode, they spend a long time maintaining their heading before turning towards the K. During this time, the K is within range and attacking the Colossus the Behemoths are assigned to bombard for.
02:53 - A Behemoth has had its engines destroyed by the K and is unable to move. Another two Behemoths are very close by, having difficulty maneuvering around one another. One of the Behemoths is destroyed by the K.
04:12 - A Behemoth further away turns towards the K and begins firing. Notably, it had been sitting in that position, facing off target, not firing its main battery since at least 03:53. Two other Behemoths can be seen closer to the K, attempting the "turn away and climb" maneuver from previous tests.
05:25 - A Behemoth has boosted away all of its shields climbing and moving away from the K. For what it's worth, it did make it away from and to the same elevation as the K.
05:59 - A Behemoth engages in the "climb to elevation of target, turn toward target, find target has moved out of range, climb to elevation of target..." loop. Manages to put out a handful of main battery rounds in the proccess, but spends much more time pitching up and down than firing.
07:15 - A Behemoth is seen pitching upwards, toward the K that's flying above. The Behemoth reaches the AI's maximum pitch angle and struggles to stay aimed at the K.
08:51 - A Behemoth is under attack by a large group of S and M Xenon ships, but none of its turrets are firing. All turrets are armed and set to orders that should target the attacking ships. See the bug reported in Beta 2, Test 01, Run 2.
10:20 - A Behemoth successfully aims toward and fires its main batteries at the K. Unfortunately, a second K has arrived and begins attacking this Behemoth. The Behemoth is destroyed, but continuously attacks the first K until its death.
11:54 - The last remaining Behemoth sits within main battery range of the first K, but simply idles in position for a time, not firing or even aiming towards the K. Eventually, it does turn and begin firing. It continues firing until the second K approaches and destroys it. The Behemoth dies the same way the previous one did, firing at the first K. Test run ends here.
Test run 2 - https://youtu.be/c50KmkGp7DY
01:39 - Opening moves are similar to the previous test: Behemoths use their travel drives but overshoot by various degrees.
01:51 - One of the Behemoths disengages its travel drive, then takes 30 seconds to recognize the K is no longer in the same position it was when the Behemoth began charging its travel drive. The Behemoth turns away from the K, rather than toward it. Other Behemoths turn toward the K and begin firing their main batteries.
03:56 - The four Behemoths present are in position and fire their main batteries at the K. The Behemoth closest to the camera stops to perform an unnecessary pitch up, then down maneuver.
04:04 - The K is destroyed by concentrated fire from 4 Behemoths. Test run ends.
Test run 3 - https://youtu.be/Z0oGBqK9JKg
01:43 - Opening moves. This time, four Behemoths end up extremely close to the K.
02:25 - A Behemoth has its engines destroyed while trying to turn and fly away from the K. The Behemoth is destroyed shortly after this.
03:19 - Another instance of a Behemoth turning away from the K, rather than toward it. Two Behemoths in the background are facing in two different directions, while the K hovers above them.
04:11 - A Behemoth struggles to aim at the K flying above maximum pitch angle. It is unable to fire or even aim its main batteries at the K while it's rapidly destroyed by Graviton fire.
04:32 - Two other Behemoths have manage to get into position and maintain fire from their main batteries until the K is destroyed. Test run ends.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Beta 3 test conclusions:
NPC destroyers do seem to use their main batteries more consistently once in position, there are improvements there. But there are still issues with getting into position.
The intersection of capital AI maneuvering limitations (maximum/minimum pitch angles) and the Xenon K's design (optimal firing position given its current turret layout) is still a glaring issue. Either capital ship AI needs those limitations removed, or Xenon Ks need to be redesigned.
Travel drive usage seems to be improved, but ships still don't update their orders frequently enough, causing them to fly to places their target used to be rather than where they are. In some cases, a ship can begin taking fire from its target before "realizing" it has to update its attack scripts.
NPC destroyers do seem to use their main batteries more consistently once in position, there are improvements there. But there are still issues with getting into position.
The intersection of capital AI maneuvering limitations (maximum/minimum pitch angles) and the Xenon K's design (optimal firing position given its current turret layout) is still a glaring issue. Either capital ship AI needs those limitations removed, or Xenon Ks need to be redesigned.
Travel drive usage seems to be improved, but ships still don't update their orders frequently enough, causing them to fly to places their target used to be rather than where they are. In some cases, a ship can begin taking fire from its target before "realizing" it has to update its attack scripts.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Alternatively, NPC cap ships need to be set to fight on an even ecliptic 'altitude', regardless of their turret configuration. Still allow Xenon to attack stations from above, as that seems to be what they are optimized for.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) BuNn3h!!!1!!!111
(O.o)
(> <) BuNn3h!!!1!!!111
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
I've tried attacking vigor sector with 8 syn and they were getting wrecked by barbarossa because they wouldn't use the main weapon, they just use the beam turrets and never use the main weapon. Nothing I did would make them use it. They only do it against station.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
well I figured why. I had my turrets set to attack all enemies, once I set it to fighters only they started using main weaponsEgifer wrote: ↑Thu, 25. Apr 24, 18:22I've tried attacking vigor sector with 8 syn and they were getting wrecked by barbarossa because they wouldn't use the main weapon, they just use the beam turrets and never use the main weapon. Nothing I did would make them use it. They only do it against station.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
This very much sounds like a bug. Maybe report it with a savegame (in an own thread)?Egifer wrote: ↑Thu, 25. Apr 24, 18:29well I figured why. I had my turrets set to attack all enemies, once I set it to fighters only they started using main weaponsEgifer wrote: ↑Thu, 25. Apr 24, 18:22I've tried attacking vigor sector with 8 syn and they were getting wrecked by barbarossa because they wouldn't use the main weapon, they just use the beam turrets and never use the main weapon. Nothing I did would make them use it. They only do it against station.
I have to say, capitals in 7.0 are better then ever. What I notice very negatively is the wiggling on target aquisition. So the try to line up their guns, overshoot the rotation while lining up and then rotate up and down, before finally lining up. This takes sooo much time.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
New test scenario: 7.00 Beta 3, Test 03
A fleet consisting of 6 Behemoth Es and 28 Nova Vanguards, led by 1 Colossus E. 1-2 average crew skill across Behemoth Es, lower than those of Test 01 in the original post, but equipment and turret commands are the same. Target is one Xenon I. All Novas begin docked at the Colossus E, all Behemoth Es are in formation (Circle) around the Colossus E, facing the I about 15km away. Behemoth Es and Novas are assigned to attack for commander. Coordinated attack order is issued against the I at the start of the test, sync point manually triggered at player discretion. No further commands are issued by the player.
Test run 1 - https://youtu.be/HU5WGGwD2z0
00:00 - Test begins, crew skill levels are reviewed. Coordinated attack issue is ordered.
00:52 - Two Behemoths collide and the Colossus while moving toward their sync points. One of the Behemoths become stuck inside the Colossus' geometry for about 60 seconds, massively delaying the coordinated attack order. During that time, The Behemoth and Colossus repeatedly "jitter" and teleport short distances.
02:10 - Aside from the Colossus and Behemoth that collided and got stuck, the rest of the fleet is has arrived at their sync points. The Behemoths are arranged in wide ring outside of the smaller ring of Novas. The Xenon I nears the plane of the sync point, sync point is manually triggered.
02:30 - The two Behemoths at the highest elevation turn to the I and begin firing their main batteries. The Behemoth closer to the camera fires a burst of main battery rounds, and then stops firing to turn away, turn back, and then resumes firing. Notably, both Behemoths aim at the tail of the I and many of their shots miss.
04:59 - The four Behemoths that began at lower elevations are pitching up and climbing. None of the four are aimed at the I or firing.
05:16 - One of the Behemoths repeatedly peforms a "nodding" motion: pitching up, then pitching down, almost never firing its main batteries. It spends over three minutes doing this. The camera is switched to another Behemoth, engaged in a similar behavior loop.
10:27 - The I enters Graviton range of one of the Behemoths and begins firing at it. The Behemoth is aimed at the I and firing its main batteries, but stops to turn away and pitch up. It is destroyed before it can gain any meaningful distance or elevation. None of the other 5 Behemoths are firing any weapons at the I. Several are not even aiming at the I.
12:31 - The 5 remaining Behemoths sit at main battery range, not firing. Several can be observed "nodding" before beginning to fire their main batteries at the I. The Behemoth at the top right "nods", and only fire its main batteries occasionally. The Behemoth at the bottom of the screen neither moves nor fires. Two of the Behemoths that do fire stop using both of their main batteries. Neither of these Behemoths have received any damage yet.
15:48 - Two of the Behemoths stop attacking to "waggle/nod" at the approaching I. The I enters Graviton range of one of the Behemoths and begins firing. The Behemoth under fire stops attacking to turn away. Its engines are destroyed by the I before the Behemoth can create any distance. The Behemoth is completely destroyed shortly after that.
16:45 - The 4 remaining Behemoths sit within main battery range of the I. Only one is firing its main batteries at the I. The other 3 are "nodding" or simply staring at the I, not firing.
17:03 - The I is destroyed, test run ends. Casualty report: 2 Behemoths, 17 Novas lost.
A fleet consisting of 6 Behemoth Es and 28 Nova Vanguards, led by 1 Colossus E. 1-2 average crew skill across Behemoth Es, lower than those of Test 01 in the original post, but equipment and turret commands are the same. Target is one Xenon I. All Novas begin docked at the Colossus E, all Behemoth Es are in formation (Circle) around the Colossus E, facing the I about 15km away. Behemoth Es and Novas are assigned to attack for commander. Coordinated attack order is issued against the I at the start of the test, sync point manually triggered at player discretion. No further commands are issued by the player.
Test run 1 - https://youtu.be/HU5WGGwD2z0
00:00 - Test begins, crew skill levels are reviewed. Coordinated attack issue is ordered.
00:52 - Two Behemoths collide and the Colossus while moving toward their sync points. One of the Behemoths become stuck inside the Colossus' geometry for about 60 seconds, massively delaying the coordinated attack order. During that time, The Behemoth and Colossus repeatedly "jitter" and teleport short distances.
02:10 - Aside from the Colossus and Behemoth that collided and got stuck, the rest of the fleet is has arrived at their sync points. The Behemoths are arranged in wide ring outside of the smaller ring of Novas. The Xenon I nears the plane of the sync point, sync point is manually triggered.
02:30 - The two Behemoths at the highest elevation turn to the I and begin firing their main batteries. The Behemoth closer to the camera fires a burst of main battery rounds, and then stops firing to turn away, turn back, and then resumes firing. Notably, both Behemoths aim at the tail of the I and many of their shots miss.
04:59 - The four Behemoths that began at lower elevations are pitching up and climbing. None of the four are aimed at the I or firing.
05:16 - One of the Behemoths repeatedly peforms a "nodding" motion: pitching up, then pitching down, almost never firing its main batteries. It spends over three minutes doing this. The camera is switched to another Behemoth, engaged in a similar behavior loop.
10:27 - The I enters Graviton range of one of the Behemoths and begins firing at it. The Behemoth is aimed at the I and firing its main batteries, but stops to turn away and pitch up. It is destroyed before it can gain any meaningful distance or elevation. None of the other 5 Behemoths are firing any weapons at the I. Several are not even aiming at the I.
12:31 - The 5 remaining Behemoths sit at main battery range, not firing. Several can be observed "nodding" before beginning to fire their main batteries at the I. The Behemoth at the top right "nods", and only fire its main batteries occasionally. The Behemoth at the bottom of the screen neither moves nor fires. Two of the Behemoths that do fire stop using both of their main batteries. Neither of these Behemoths have received any damage yet.
15:48 - Two of the Behemoths stop attacking to "waggle/nod" at the approaching I. The I enters Graviton range of one of the Behemoths and begins firing. The Behemoth under fire stops attacking to turn away. Its engines are destroyed by the I before the Behemoth can create any distance. The Behemoth is completely destroyed shortly after that.
16:45 - The 4 remaining Behemoths sit within main battery range of the I. Only one is firing its main batteries at the I. The other 3 are "nodding" or simply staring at the I, not firing.
17:03 - The I is destroyed, test run ends. Casualty report: 2 Behemoths, 17 Novas lost.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Test conclusions:
Longstanding issues persist: "waggling/waving/nodding" at targets, unnecessary repositioning maneuvers, failing to fire main batteries when in a clear position to do so.
"Coordinate Attack" is liable to cause egregious collision scenarios between NPC ships. Additional test runs of this scenario are already recorded, and the collisions have been constant in all of them thus far. The order is also liable to expose faults and flaws in AI-controlled destroyer behavior regarding attacking targets above or below them.
I've bolded two instances in this run illustrating the futility of retreat/regain distance behavior for destroyers. All it does it get them killed.
Longstanding issues persist: "waggling/waving/nodding" at targets, unnecessary repositioning maneuvers, failing to fire main batteries when in a clear position to do so.
"Coordinate Attack" is liable to cause egregious collision scenarios between NPC ships. Additional test runs of this scenario are already recorded, and the collisions have been constant in all of them thus far. The order is also liable to expose faults and flaws in AI-controlled destroyer behavior regarding attacking targets above or below them.
I've bolded two instances in this run illustrating the futility of retreat/regain distance behavior for destroyers. All it does it get them killed.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
Re: [7.00 Beta 2][Feedback] NPC-controlled capital ship combat in high attention
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.