The new Guide sticky thread. Not happy Jan !

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The new Guide sticky thread. Not happy Jan !

Post by apricotslice » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 12:13

{{This post was originally made on the sticky thread, and moved here later by a mod.}}

You have got to be kidding.

How does a guide that ends by recommending people take a long time before coming back to the second mission, have any relevence at all on the latest patch ? It doesnt. There is nothing in the new patch that has any relevance to the guide.

If you differ, I beg you point out what its missing now. That actually goes for all of them. I'm not aware of anything that should be added to any of them. Please advise.

Oh. Maybe the gizmo that makes sos non-detectable. Ok, we deprive people of the software guide because its missing. Where is the sense in that ?

Edit :
A decision has been made that no guides will be linked in this thread unless they are for the latest version of the game.
So what you decided was that NO guide is BETTER than an outdated guide ?

That attitude sux. Sorry to be so blunt, but given the incredable amount of time, effort and dedication that so many people have put into some really good guides, your now saying, "worthless unless updated" ?

You descriminate against guide writers because they dont currently have the time to spend on games that they once did ?

You would rather deprive people of valuable guidance ?

All guides are an assett to the game, and to this site. REGARDLESS of if they are up to date or not.

On behalf of the guide writers and all the guide readers, I ask ....

RECONSIDER YOUR DECISION PLEASE.


Edit : "Not happy Jan !" comes from a Yellow Pages TV ad, and has since become common usage here. Means very very unhappy about something. The name is just part of the phrase and has no relevance.

Thread name changed once I'd cooled down a bit.
Last edited by apricotslice on Tue, 12. Dec 06, 06:08, edited 3 times in total.

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I am completely disgusted by the new Guide sticky thread.

Post by apricotslice » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 13:18

{{This post is the original OP for this thread}}

I am completely disgusted by the following :
Graphil wrote:A decision has been made that no guides will be linked in this thread unless they are for the latest version of the game. So all the existing links were reviewed from the first post and ones that didn't cover 2.0 content for X3 were removed for now. Of course, any guide that is subsequently updated will be linked in the main post.
So ....all the effort, dedication and hard work of a lot of people is put on the scrap heap, not wanted anymore, denied to the players,....

....simply because they have not been updated to the latest PATCH of the game, for whatever reason has prevented the author from doing so.

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS !

Out of all my guides, only the software guide needs an update, a single item. The rest have no context at all for including anything in the latest patch. Yet they are/will be excluded because I havent had the time to even reread them since the patch was released, let alone review them properly in the light of the patch contents.

The X3 Handbook, which contains a lot that was out of date when it was done, and included because it was still the best advise available (and still is !) is on the sticky thread, but under this decision should not be.

Some of the really great guides were written in the early days of the game and are still not up to date for version 1.3.

Who cares ?

They are still a great guide that help new players avoid throwing the game away in disgust because its too damn hard without the guides for help.

Thats what the guides were written for. Who the H*ll cares exactly which version they were written for ?

I urge the powers that be to reconsider this decision for the benefit all players.

Denying players of valuable guides for the reason given is Total Madness and I urge Egosoft to reverse this decision.

Rant Over.
Last edited by apricotslice on Sat, 9. Dec 06, 04:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ceogreen » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 13:25

It does seem slightly harsh, but given the amount of changes in the recent versions then the guides which were incorrect would cause confusion.

My reading of the post is that they only stopped linking guides which contained old information which had since changed. There still seem to be quite a lot of guides there for most sections.

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Post by esd » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 13:27

This is basically a duplicate of what you already posted in the sticky, so I'm locking this.
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Post by Skinmeister » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 13:32

Last edited by Skinmeister on Sun, 13. Feb 11, 18:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by euclid » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 13:45

apricotslice wrote:You have got to be kidding.....
Easy Apricotslice ;-)

It's not like they're all gone for ever. You are right that some of the guides were still just fine but many others were not.

It was just more convenient to temporary disable all links rather than start a time consuming selection process .

Your and all the other guides will be back soon. Patience :-)


Cheers Euclid

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Post by xalien » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 13:58

In general I'd agree with a little clean-up although I'm not very happy with how it was done.
The tractor beam got some additional funcionality and range and all of the sudden the guide for towing stations is considered no longer valid? Yet the AsterXiphos's Missile Info that was wrong from the very beginning is still there :sceptic:

Just how many things there are in v2.0 that have actually changed? Differen pirate spawning pattern? NR losing a shield? Some ships get to mount another weapon (CIG)?

IMHO just because a guide doesn't mention some new item doesn't mean that it should be discarded.

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Post by CBJ » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 14:09

apricotslice wrote:RECONSIDER YOUR DECISION PLEASE.
Sorry, but this seems to be a huge over-reaction. Each guide was quickly reviewed for relevance. If a particular guide still seemed to be relevant to new players starting with 2.0.02 then it was included; if it was out of date and therefore not useful then it wasn't.

The suggestion for guide authors to update their guides was to give them an opportunity to get their guide back into the list, especially if the required changes were relatively minor, not to ask them to spend a lot of time working on it.

If there is a disagreement over whether a particular guide is useful or not then of course it is open for discussion, as is how much work is needed to bring a given guide up to date sufficiently to be linked. Just PM Graphil if you want to discuss it. It would be ridiculous to leaving all guides in a sticky thread, even if they are completely irrelevant to people playing the game now.

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Post by eladan » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 14:12

xalien wrote:IMHO just because a guide doesn't mention some new item doesn't mean that it should be discarded.
Agreed. Better to have a slightly out of date guide than none at all.

A note next to the guide to say the known latest game version it's accurate for would solve this, I think. I'm sure there are people willing to supply that info if the mods think it would be too much work...

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Post by Graphil » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 14:37

xalien wrote:Just how many things there are in v2.0 that have actually changed?
New ships
Changed ships
New sectors
Player HQ
Bala Gi mission
New BBS missions
Removed BBS mission
New weapon
New equipment
tractor beam changed

to name a few off the top of my head. BTW, what is incorrect in the missile guide you mentioned so the author can be requested to fix it?
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Post by xalien » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 14:51

Missile speeds, damage display. Roguey's site has it all correct.

And most of the things you've mentioned are new, not changed :wink:

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Post by geoffrey » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 14:53

Agreed. Better to have a slightly out of date guide than none at all.
apricot you have my full backing. the guide should stay although a footnote should be added explaining that some of the material printed has been changed since further updates. your work has been read and enjoyed by many, myself included. i hope you can update where neccessary and if i can be of any assistance please let me know.
i personally would like to
THANKYOU
for all the excellant work you have done and i hope to see you posting more often as you are 1 of the few people on this forum that knows his stuff.

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Post by nirwin » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 15:04

Well I don't feel as strongly about this as apricotslice, probably because I didn't take the enormous effort to write any guides myself, but I certainly do agree with him.

Could we not have a "(v2.0.02)" marking after any link which you have 'verified' to be up to date with the latest patch?

Learning to do things in this game is hard enough, these guides are essential, I for one would rather have an outdated guide on mobile mining, and just have to discover the differences with what it says and the reality of the current version than blindly fly around trying to figure it out from scratch.

I think something else worth taking into consideration is that not everybody will necessarily be using v2.0.02, over my (short) time on this forum, I have noticed people not upgrading to the latest version for whatever reason, so someone still playing a v1.3 game, could waste 2 hours or their life searching for the gate to "senators badlands" which isn't even in their game, all because of an updated map. This swings both ways, that's why marking the version number it is for is really the best solution (IMO).

We may have all complained like kids without any supper about the poor manual we received with our copy of X3, but hands up anyone who would rather not have had one at all (though I'm sure it was a close call)? It sure helped me understand a few concepts.

You say they will (all?) be back? I hope so, and I hope for every noob out there, it is soon.

Anyway don't mean to rant, just I agree with apricot and wanted to help get his view across and hopefully help you see our concern.

Thanks.
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rant

Post by Sirus5 » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 15:29

Well, I can see Apricot Slice's point of view having spent hours lovingly creating something of use to us all and then seeing it removed just beacuse of a few words - however, we do have to remember that out-of date information can be "dangerous".. So, I can see the Mod's point in wanting to tidy up a bit, and I think they are right....

Maybe it would be useful if there were another sticky created for a period of say 1 month and all the out-of date guides put in there - any which are updated to the latest version (and marked by someone responsible) as (2.0.x compatible) (or latest version for X2) would then be automatically transferred over to the live sticky...

This may be a way around both sides of the story, and I think the Mods are not trying to be arkward... Please see their side of the story as well and don't worry, I am sure that we can get ALL of the important ones back!

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Post by apricotslice » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 15:34

Graphil wrote:
xalien wrote:Just how many things there are in v2.0 that have actually changed?
New ships
Changed ships
New sectors
Player HQ
Bala Gi mission
New BBS missions
Removed BBS mission
New weapon
New equipment
tractor beam changed
None of which have any relevance to ANY of my guides (with one minor equipment change needed to the software guide no-one knows about).

V2 does not change the way the game starts, so why has my starting out guide been dropped ?

I point out that downloads of the Handbook have remained steady since V2 came out, and I still get thankyous from people it helped, who would otherwise have thrown the game away without it. So it doesnt mention all of the above ? No-one who is starting the game really cares, since many will never get to use any of the above without reading the Handbook, or its component guides first.

geoffrey, bless you and thankyou :)

And anyone can add a such a footnote to a guide thread by a post to each guide thread, mentioning that such and such is out of date now, this is it instead. If the authors dont update them, at least the thread informs. And there are plenty of people with the time to make these postings. If anyone finds such things in my guides, by all means, post a correction in the appropriate thread.

I had to take time out from this forum and the game as real life intruded bigtime, and still does. Over the last few months, I've read only those threads with longevity as I havent had the time for anything else. I shouldnt be spending this time here now either. I havent even had a chance to load V2 yet, so I dont know even what the new HQ looks like, let alone do anything about guides or the Handbook. The next version of the Handbook was put on hold until next year. Now I'm questioning if I should even bother, given the current attitude. My current commitments make it impossible for me to do any work on anything X3 until Christmas and more likely well into the new year, and it rips my guts out to have egosoft denigh good guides to people who need them just because I dont have the time to play the update and then review the guides just now. I really dont think that is fair.

I would much prefer what has been suggested, that each guide has a version number next to the link. In which case, the Handbook and all of my guides should be labelled 1.4.02. At least people can still get to read them, can still get to find that important bit of information that without it, is making them pull their hair out in big chunks. The guides are there to prevent this, are there to help people who know nothing about the X games before they start the game the first time. Why are we now arbitrarily removing the help ? Is this yet another case of the decisions being made by people who have forgotten what starting the game is like for those who have never done so before ? (Sorry, old gripe).

I really do feel like I've been kicked in the teeth while I wasnt looking. And that really pushed a button. I'm sorry if people think I'm overreacting. But I think someone has to, to put some sanity back into this decision.

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Post by Deleted User » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 16:05

Interesting, I can certainly see your point of view apricotslice, but
if you haven't downloaded v2.0 you might be suprised at the differences
in game-play / universe-dynamics when you do.

Far greater pirate activity, esp Yaki -affects decisions about patrols / transporter protection.
New sector for Goners - esp Goner rep. related
HQ !, makes a huge difference to what you might aim at (esp. factory locations), even when starting out
and several others like Graphil pointed out - the new features affect game-play, they don't exist in isolation

Having said that I agree that a version for any given guide would be sufficient to allow people to decide
for themselves if they want to risk getting 90% good info, with possibly 10% outdated info.

Trouble is you'd have to organise the guide list by compatible version,
but X2 would be just one section then (which I think would be better)

[PS the X ship / factory model viewer works with X2 as well]

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Post by donotdespisethesnake » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 16:11

Sure, it's nice to have guides that are bang up to date, but most of the guides I ever looked out have always had a few things that were wrong/out of date. Given the fact people volunteer their time and effort to create them I never felt like complaining about it, but am grateful for what they have done.

I think it's quite a slap in the face to turn around and dump people's stuff, just because it doesn't meet some arbitrary new standard. v2.0.02 is really not that different from previous versions, you are kidding yourself if you think so. I think you should list whatever people offer, leave it up to us to decide whether it is good or not. We aren't totally stupid ;)
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Post by Jakesnake5 » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 16:13

apricotslice wrote:No-one who is starting the game really cares, since many will never get to use any of the above without reading the Handbook, or its component guides first.
This statement is false, out of date, and totally irrelevant.

Most the new players DO care. Your 'guides' do NOT cover those items, and as such, your guides CAN'T help them get the items.

And your Handbook, which, being as out of date as the contained guides, is useless to these new players.

Stop pitching a fit because YOU will be inconvenienced by this action. Either update, or stop blowing wind. If you don't have time to do it, find somebody who DOES!

X3 changed a LOT from 1.0 to 1.4.03. And some of those older guides don't apply any more because they contain data that doesn't fit. 2.0 did not just add things, it changed quite a bit as well, which you, and most others, have no idea about.

So complaining here about how this causes you grief isn't getting the necessary job of updating the guides done. Spend time doing that, less nagging and arguing about this.

The decision was made, and no amount of tantroms is going to change that fact.

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Post by Deleted User » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 16:23

Jakesnake5

blimee o'riley!, can't see that inspiring him to devote his time to help
others (us) out.
He's quite entitled to be upset, I would be too,
but let's get the best of all worlds by being reasonable with each other's input to these forums.
Can't help feeling you just put his back up (even further).

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Post by LV » Fri, 8. Dec 06, 16:31

Interesting.

As i've never written any kind of guide it's hard not to see that it's better to have factual information at hand than info which could be unreliable, but as an example a few of my scripts are "quirky" since the update and I cant fix them currently meaning if the if the same conditions were applied my scripts would be pulled and I'd be a little angry [/understatement]. Thankfully peeps are helping me out. :thumb_up:

It must be hugely frustrating put to put a heap of time and effort into something and then feel like you've been kicked in the teeth but at the end of the day if you can't update and you feel your work and time was wasted and unappreciated I'd simply not bother doing it anymore. I know who would lose out in the long run and that would be the community in general.

If you don't update someone will come along and fill your place and write new guides. Whenever I do anything in relation to Egosoft I do it for the users and myself, that way i could never feel let down by a lack of interest from the hierarcy. Look at it as thier loss not yours as it works for me :)


tough one to call.
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